| View previous topic :: View next topic |
| Author |
Message |
George Weston
Guest
|
 Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 11:15 pm Post subject: Re: Varying Attenuation |
 |
|
"Klunk" <bill.gates@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:487792ae$0$2920$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
| Quote: |
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:38:40 +0100, George Weston passed an empty day by
writing:
"m" <mikej@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:487749F9.3090801@tiscali.co.uk...
kraftee wrote:
naza wrote:
Its BT's fault, tested at the test socket and it was on the other
side. They sent out an engineer and he is here right now. Playing
around wit the cables in the ground. Been here 30mins.
Only another 90 to go then..
Here's another one for you K!
Mates phone went faulty but BB OK - typical one-leg fault! Then 2 days
later BB failed too.
Called out BT (meanwhile restoring slightly 'illegal' cable routeing to
NTE inside flat).
Hawk confirms faulty 15m away.
Follow pairs.
Dis at block on outside of the flats - VERY STRANGE!! Get test from
exchange - identify pair - restore - still one legged. Find fault in
joint in manhole (sorry non-pc - Footway box) Note new install on
another flat (using second hand cables). Could it POSSIBLY be that a OR
eng had tried to find a spare pair? nicked his, found it faulty and
just left it off?
Heaven forefend!
As if anyone would....
;-(
George
When you only pay £23k a year for 36.5 hours, that is what you get ;-)
|
Ooh - bit o' politics here, folks!
;-)
George |
|
| Back to top |
|
 |
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
kraftee
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:02 am Post subject: Re: Varying Attenuation |
|
|
m wrote:
| Quote: |
kraftee wrote:
naza wrote:
Its BT's fault, tested at the test socket and it was on the other
side. They sent out an engineer and he is here right now. Playing
around wit the cables in the ground. Been here 30mins.
Only another 90 to go then..
Here's another one for you K!
Mates phone went faulty but BB OK - typical one-leg fault!
Then 2 days later BB failed too.
Called out BT (meanwhile restoring slightly 'illegal' cable
routeing to NTE inside flat).
Hawk confirms faulty 15m away.
Follow pairs.
Dis at block on outside of the flats - VERY STRANGE!!
Get test from exchange - identify pair - restore - still one legged.
Find fault in joint in manhole (sorry non-pc - Footway box)
Note new install on another flat (using second hand cables).
Could it POSSIBLY be that a OR eng had tried to find a spare pair?
nicked his, found it faulty and just left it off?
Heaven forefend!
Mike
|
Exactly, just wait until network live hits your PCP then look out for the
dis one leg faults suddenly appear, or even in some cases both legs dis as
the jumper has been physically removed.
It's the problem with working on a live network, you can never be 100% sure
that the pair of wires is going where it should, or if it was changed 15
years ago & now goes somewhere else, with the records (what records) having
not been updated.
The good thing is that your friend got his service back. Now you know why
we're the centre of attention, when we start doing anything in the street. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
kraftee
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:06 am Post subject: Re: Varying Attenuation |
|
|
George Weston wrote:
| Quote: |
"Klunk" <bill.gates@microsoft.com> wrote in message
news:487792ae$0$2920$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 15:38:40 +0100, George Weston passed an empty
day by writing:
"m" <mikej@tiscali.co.uk> wrote in message
news:487749F9.3090801@tiscali.co.uk...
kraftee wrote:
naza wrote:
Its BT's fault, tested at the test socket and it was on the
other side. They sent out an engineer and he is here right
now. Playing around wit the cables in the ground. Been here
30mins.
Only another 90 to go then..
Here's another one for you K!
Mates phone went faulty but BB OK - typical one-leg fault! Then
2 days later BB failed too.
Called out BT (meanwhile restoring slightly 'illegal' cable
routeing to NTE inside flat).
Hawk confirms faulty 15m away.
Follow pairs.
Dis at block on outside of the flats - VERY STRANGE!! Get test
from exchange - identify pair - restore - still one legged. Find
fault in joint in manhole (sorry non-pc - Footway box) Note new
install on another flat (using second hand cables). Could it
POSSIBLY be that a OR eng had tried to find a spare pair? nicked
his, found it faulty and just left it off?
Heaven forefend!
As if anyone would....
;-(
George
When you only pay £23k a year for 36.5 hours, that is what you get
;-)
Ooh - bit o' politics here, folks!
;-)
George
|
You seen what the C3s are getting just sitting on their bottoms playing with
computers, with a smoke/toilet/chat break every hour, it's obscene, & they
complain that they don't get enough o/t. Mind you with the increasing
reliance of centres over seas, some of them must be nervousely looking over
their shoulders thinking who's next..... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
George Weston
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:15 am Post subject: Re: Varying Attenuation |
|
|
"kraftee" <kraftee@b&e-cottee.me.uk> wrote in message
news:38ednaWNJ7IVV-rVnZ2dnUVZ8uednZ2d@bt.com...
| Quote: |
m wrote:
kraftee wrote:
naza wrote:
Its BT's fault, tested at the test socket and it was on the other
side. They sent out an engineer and he is here right now. Playing
around wit the cables in the ground. Been here 30mins.
Only another 90 to go then..
Here's another one for you K!
Mates phone went faulty but BB OK - typical one-leg fault!
Then 2 days later BB failed too.
Called out BT (meanwhile restoring slightly 'illegal' cable
routeing to NTE inside flat).
Hawk confirms faulty 15m away.
Follow pairs.
Dis at block on outside of the flats - VERY STRANGE!!
Get test from exchange - identify pair - restore - still one legged.
Find fault in joint in manhole (sorry non-pc - Footway box)
Note new install on another flat (using second hand cables).
Could it POSSIBLY be that a OR eng had tried to find a spare pair?
nicked his, found it faulty and just left it off?
Heaven forefend!
Mike
Exactly, just wait until network live hits your PCP then look out for the
dis one leg faults suddenly appear, or even in some cases both legs dis as
the jumper has been physically removed.
It's the problem with working on a live network, you can never be 100%
sure that the pair of wires is going where it should, or if it was changed
15 years ago & now goes somewhere else, with the records (what records)
having not been updated.
The good thing is that your friend got his service back. Now you know why
we're the centre of attention, when we start doing anything in the street.
|
Bring back the good ol' routing & records man with his card-index, I say!
;-)
George |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
kraftee
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 2:28 am Post subject: Re: Varying Attenuation |
|
|
George Weston wrote:
| Quote: |
"kraftee" <kraftee@b&e-cottee.me.uk> wrote in message
news:38ednaWNJ7IVV-rVnZ2dnUVZ8uednZ2d@bt.com...
m wrote:
kraftee wrote:
naza wrote:
Its BT's fault, tested at the test socket and it was on the
other side. They sent out an engineer and he is here right
now. Playing around wit the cables in the ground. Been here
30mins.
Only another 90 to go then..
Here's another one for you K!
Mates phone went faulty but BB OK - typical one-leg fault!
Then 2 days later BB failed too.
Called out BT (meanwhile restoring slightly 'illegal' cable
routeing to NTE inside flat).
Hawk confirms faulty 15m away.
Follow pairs.
Dis at block on outside of the flats - VERY STRANGE!!
Get test from exchange - identify pair - restore - still one
legged. Find fault in joint in manhole (sorry non-pc - Footway
box) Note new install on another flat (using second hand cables).
Could it POSSIBLY be that a OR eng had tried to find a spare pair?
nicked his, found it faulty and just left it off?
Heaven forefend!
Mike
Exactly, just wait until network live hits your PCP then look out
for the dis one leg faults suddenly appear, or even in some cases
both legs dis as the jumper has been physically removed.
It's the problem with working on a live network, you can never be
100% sure that the pair of wires is going where it should, or if
it was changed 15 years ago & now goes somewhere else, with the
records (what records) having not been updated.
The good thing is that your friend got his service back. Now you
know why we're the centre of attention, when we start doing
anything in the street.
Bring back the good ol' routing & records man with his card-index,
I say!
;-)
George
|
I used to be able to track every single circuit from the 3 exchanges I
worked in in London in the good old days, now it's all computers & their
foibles. Much as I enjoy playing with them they have made record keeping
lax... |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
kraftee
Guest
|
| Posted: Sat Jul 12, 2008 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Varying Attenuation |
|
|
naza wrote:
| Quote: |
What actually happens in the man holes. There is quite a few in my
area. I thought PCP's was where the length from the exchange stopped
at.
|
Person holes, carriage way boxes, small ones JB23s etc all contain cables (&
nowadays very often fibre links) & very often contain joints where various
sized cables are either joined together or split apart. So the supposition
that there is only one cable running from the PCP to each DP isn't true, it
just makes it simpler when trying to describe to the general person what
happens. What really happens can be a lot more complicated & remember each
joint, if not properly fitted does have the capacity to allow the ingress of
water. E side cables are supposedly pressurised to stop this. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
m
Guest
|
| Posted: Mon Jul 14, 2008 6:21 pm Post subject: Re: Varying Attenuation |
|
|
kraftee wrote:
| Quote: |
Person holes, carriage way boxes, small ones JB23s etc all contain cables (&
nowadays very often fibre links) & very often contain joints where various
sized cables are either joined together or split apart. So the supposition
that there is only one cable running from the PCP to each DP isn't true, it
just makes it simpler when trying to describe to the general person what
happens. What really happens can be a lot more complicated & remember each
joint, if not properly fitted does have the capacity to allow the ingress of
water. E side cables are supposedly pressurised to stop this.
|
Hey Kraftee.
Whats the normal measuring condition on a pair now?
In my day (Strowger etc) it was -50v battery on the 'B' leg and about 2k
to earth on the 'A' leg.
A BT person recently told me it's not the same now.
Should anyone wish to do anything on the BT side of the NTE (Heaven
forefend!!) how does one get the legs round the right way with a simple
meter? or does it matter anyway?
And what is a rectified loop (or something) that can be measured from
the exchange remote tester but doesn't (necesarily) remove service.
Just been trying to sort out next door's phones as it goes one ring then
cuts off - even in the test socket - surely an exchange fault?
You would have loved the wiring.
A plug-in extension into the master socket (not NTE) going to a junction
box feeding two places.
The 'ringwire' backfed (off the back of the master socket) onto the
incoming block on the lead cable where another cable to the bedroom/loft
was paralled across the incommer and the ring joined inside a bit of
sleeving.
Then (would you believe) orange and blue of a new type cable used for
the A/B legs and green used for the ring wire.
Guess the guy was remembering O/B/Gn/Bn cable.
Not surprisingly the Broadband had never worked fast using a split pair!!
Ah well - BT man comes tomorrow to sort fault. (no guv I didn't touch
any of your wires - honestly!!)
Mike |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
kraftee
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 1:33 am Post subject: Re: Varying Attenuation |
|
|
m wrote:
| Quote: |
kraftee wrote:
Person holes, carriage way boxes, small ones JB23s etc all contain
cables (& nowadays very often fibre links) & very often contain
joints where various sized cables are either joined together or
split apart. So the supposition that there is only one cable
running from the PCP to each DP isn't true, it just makes it
simpler when trying to describe to the general person what
happens. What really happens can be a lot more complicated &
remember each joint, if not properly fitted does have the capacity
to allow the ingress of water. E side cables are supposedly
pressurised to stop this.
Hey Kraftee.
Whats the normal measuring condition on a pair now?
In my day (Strowger etc) it was -50v battery on the 'B' leg and
about 2k to earth on the 'A' leg.
A BT person recently told me it's not the same now.
Should anyone wish to do anything on the BT side of the NTE (Heaven
forefend!!) how does one get the legs round the right way with a
simple meter? or does it matter anyway?
|
Doesn't matter at all
| Quote: |
And what is a rectified loop (or something) that can be measured
from the exchange remote tester but doesn't (necesarily) remove
service.
|
A rectiified loop is where there is more current flow one way (b to a) than
the other (a to b) but not necessarily in that order.
| Quote: |
Just been trying to sort out next door's phones as it goes one ring
then cuts off - even in the test socket - surely an exchange fault?
|
Nope when the AC hits the fault it will see a loop on the appropiate part
of the sine wave & so the exchange will think a receiver has been picked up
& stop the ringing current. It's normally caused by corrosion somewhere on
the circuit 20+ years say it is most probably the leadin, but if there are
any trees on route all bets are off.
| Quote: |
You would have loved the wiring.
A plug-in extension into the master socket (not NTE) going to a
junction box feeding two places.
The 'ringwire' backfed (off the back of the master socket) onto the
incoming block on the lead cable where another cable to the
bedroom/loft was paralled across the incommer and the ring joined
inside a bit of sleeving.
Then (would you believe) orange and blue of a new type cable used
for the A/B legs and green used for the ring wire.
Guess the guy was remembering O/B/Gn/Bn cable.
Not surprisingly the Broadband had never worked fast using a split
pair!!
Ah well - BT man comes tomorrow to sort fault. (no guv I didn't
touch any of your wires - honestly!!)
|
Has your friend phoned up his bank manager to arrange the over draft ;-)
|
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Martin²
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 7:28 am Post subject: Re: Varying Attenuation |
|
|
For Kraftee:
| Quote: |
but if there are any trees on route all bets are off.
|
To take up my previous thread:
My rural line doesn't pass over any electric cattle fences (though it may
further down the line),
but it's an overhead line through tall trees along a very windy ridge.
Could that be causing the noise spikes on my line and varying SNR ? (Att.
stays constant at 51dB)
Thanks, regards,
Martin |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
The Natural Philosopher
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 10:46 am Post subject: Re: Varying Attenuation |
|
|
Martin² wrote:
| Quote: |
For Kraftee:
but if there are any trees on route all bets are off.
To take up my previous thread:
My rural line doesn't pass over any electric cattle fences (though it may
further down the line),
but it's an overhead line through tall trees along a very windy ridge.
Could that be causing the noise spikes on my line and varying SNR ? (Att.
stays constant at 51dB)
Thanks, regards,
Martin
you can take your pick really. |
wries running against stuff creating static.
wires picking up shortwave or medium wave radio
wires picking up welders, or any equipment that sparks.
wires picking up thunderstorms.
...the list is endless. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 4:15 pm Post subject: Re: Varying Attenuation |
|
|
| Quote: |
My rural line doesn't pass over any electric cattle fences (though it may
further down the line),
but it's an overhead line through tall trees along a very windy ridge.
Could that be causing the noise spikes on my line and varying SNR ? (Att.
stays constant at 51dB)
|
Possibly a bad connection, but open wire telephone lines seem to
be rare or non existant, so it's probably a multipair cable and unlikely
to be the culprit.
OTOH windy ridges are amongst the favorite locations for cellphone
and other similar masts? |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
m
Guest
|
| Posted: Tue Jul 15, 2008 11:28 pm Post subject: Re: Varying Attenuation |
|
|
kraftee wrote:
| Quote: |
m wrote:
kraftee wrote:
Hey Kraftee.
And what is a rectified loop (or something) that can be measured
from the exchange remote tester but doesn't (necesarily) remove
service.
A rectiified loop is where there is more current flow one way (b to a) than
the other (a to b) but not necessarily in that order.
|
As suspected the problem next door was the lead cable (more than 50
years old??) Snapped at a clamp and corroded. According to the very
knowledgeable and chatty OR lad - this is obvious as the corrosion
causes effectively a diode to earth - hence more flow from that leg to
earth!
Now I know why there is a relatively high value R in the NTE so that
there is always some sort of highish resistance loop present (depending
on line length) so DC tests can be done.
Mike
PS It was good to see the guy with a real DC test meter in addition to a
Hawk!! |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
kraftee
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:25 am Post subject: Re: Varying Attenuation |
|
|
Martin² wrote:
| Quote: |
For Kraftee:
but if there are any trees on route all bets are off.
To take up my previous thread:
My rural line doesn't pass over any electric cattle fences (though
it may further down the line),
but it's an overhead line through tall trees along a very windy
ridge. Could that be causing the noise spikes on my line and
varying SNR ? (Att. stays constant at 51dB)
Thanks, regards,
Martin
|
It may cause them, but I would expect other audible symptoms as well. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
kraftee
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:32 am Post subject: Re: Varying Attenuation |
|
|
ato_zee@hotmail.com wrote:
| Quote: |
My rural line doesn't pass over any electric cattle fences (though
it may further down the line),
but it's an overhead line through tall trees along a very windy
ridge. Could that be causing the noise spikes on my line and
varying SNR ? (Att. stays constant at 51dB)
Possibly a bad connection, but open wire telephone lines seem to
be rare or non existant, so it's probably a multipair cable and
unlikely to be the culprit.
OTOH windy ridges are amongst the favorite locations for cellphone
and other similar masts?
|
The dropwire could be stretched by the wind, dropwire running thru trees
tend to get damaged, a previouse non standard repair beaking down. The list
is endless just looking at the dropwire & router without adding anything
else.
Had a fault last year & in the end I had to replace 4 spans of dropwire
along a windy ridge to get the broadband back & running, no trees, a
possibly bodged repair (but I wouldn't swear to that as I did fix that on my
first visit, got the problem completely solved on the second) & just plain
old wind(yyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy).
Looking back at it I should have had a person making sure that the traffic
would avoid the flapping dropwire as I tried to fully tension it, but
hindsight is 20 20. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
kraftee
Guest
|
| Posted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 2:41 am Post subject: Re: Varying Attenuation |
|
|
m wrote:
| Quote: |
kraftee wrote:
m wrote:
kraftee wrote:
Hey Kraftee.
And what is a rectified loop (or something) that can be measured
from the exchange remote tester but doesn't (necesarily) remove
service.
A rectiified loop is where there is more current flow one way (b
to a) than the other (a to b) but not necessarily in that order.
As suspected the problem next door was the lead cable (more than 50
years old??) Snapped at a clamp and corroded. According to the very
knowledgeable and chatty OR lad - this is obvious as the corrosion
causes effectively a diode to earth - hence more flow from that leg
to earth!
Now I know why there is a relatively high value R in the NTE so that
there is always some sort of highish resistance loop present
(depending on line length) so DC tests can be done.
Mike
PS It was good to see the guy with a real DC test meter in addition
to a Hawk!!
|
SHHHHHHH the boss mustn't know. It's that time of year again & the little
darlings are being tasked to search our vans once again so that they can
recover all supplus test equipment. Hope your engineer remembers to hide
that 9083 or else that'll be gone. Got my ear to the ground so that I don't
loose mine, go to remember if I do get caught out, that the Hawk can't
readily see rectified loops.
Having said that & bad mouthing the Hawk I have found recently that it makes
a bloody good TDR, but not if you use it properly (go figure). It can put
you within 1mtr of a dis (unless there is a tone on from the other end)
which can be a life saver, even at the extreme ranges of say 2Km it can
still give you an easy to read, but above all accurate measurement (which is
where the older 'moles' tended to start to fall away). Pity the same can't
be said about the others things it's supposed to do. |
|
| Back to top |
|
|
| |
Ads |
Advertising
Sponsor
|
|
|
|
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum
|
73 Attacks blocked
Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
|
FAQ
Search
Memberlist
Usergroups
Register
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
